THE UNDERCARD DEBATE

Anyone who’s been paying attention knows that the VP debate often has memorable lines (“I knew Jack Kennedy and you’re no Jack Kennedy.”), but rarely persuades anyone to change their vote. On to the undercard:

PRE-DEBATE (As before via MSNBC)

9:16 Joe Scarborough – “The Republicans are hoping that Edwards talks about Cheney and Halliburton, because that’s attacking the #2 guy. Cheney is going after Kerry. Edwards isn’t going to make any more scar tissue on Cheney.”

9:22 Ron Reagan, Jon Meachem (the Newseek guy) and Joe Scarborough all say that if it’s a “tie” that Edwards win. I find that interesting.

9:50 All predictions are that Edwards goes after Cheney for his involvement in Iraq and Cheney goes after Edwards for not being up to the task to hold the VP or presidency. It’s just fascinating how little all of these people seem to think of Edwards as a debater. I have a knee-jerk reaction against Edwards the politician, but he is used to public arguing. Don’t they have the debate thing backwards?

9:53 There’s an anti-Cheney sign behind the MSNBC desk that says “Leave no billionaire behind.” Have they looked at the bank accounts of Kerry and Edwards lately?

9:57 Chris Matthews: “You’re not supposed to bring in notes, but they can bring in memorized lines & write them down! Look at these two!” No doubt, the flurry of notes 4 minutes before the opening bell is quite astonishing.

DEBATE
NOTE: Since I’m typing in real time, some of the quotes may be off by a word or two. Don’t quote me; check the transcripts.

9:00 Edwards flashes a smile at his introduction. The Conservative Wife has already barfed.

9:01 How do two liberal moderators from NPR get the job in both debates so far, and get to choose the material? Who is this Gwen Ifill, other than Jim Lehrer’s cohort? Gee, how do you think she’s going to skew this?

9:03 Cheney is spouting the NeoCon line immediately. “We had to establish democracies in these places where state-sponsored terrorism was occurring.” 1000 miles away, I can hear the Liberal Colorado Friend retching.

9:09 Edwards says again that “we had Osama bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora.” He might be in trouble here repeating what Kerry said about “outsourcing to Afghan warlords who were working with bin Laden a few weeks ago.” It makes him sound like a puppet, and that scenario is also questionable in its accuracy. He also sounds like a lawyer. “Listen to what the Vice-President says because there is no connection between Saddam Hussein & bin Laden.”

9:10 Cheney sees the opening: ‘The Senator has his facts wrong. This is what I said.” He just made mincemeat of Edwards to anyone that’s listening. Edwards should have known better. And, Cheney changes his tack to go after Kerry, not Edwards. Very smart.

9:13 Cheney talking about democracy in Afghanistan and how democracy will change the region. Edwards comes back to the “outsourcing the job to Afghan warlords.” Edwards is good at changing the subject to the place he wants to keep the focus. Even if Cheney actually eats him up on facts, Edwards looks like he’s going to hold his own. This one is shaping up to a draw, where the only people that won’t think so are the partisans.

9:16 Cheney: “20 years ago I was an observer in El Salvador and the drive for democracy was so great that they are so much better off.” Wow. El Salvadorians everywhere cheer at being recognized once every 20 years.

9:17 Edwards talking about how Iran & North Korea are greater threats now than they were 4 years ago. Gwen Ifill’s next question should be about what he is going to do about this. But it won’t be. She’s partisan, she’s not a credible journalist, and she doesn’t want to focus on Edwards fudging.

9:19 Edwards: “We’ve taken 90% of the casualties in Iraq, and we’re at 200 billion dollars and counting.” Cheney jumps on that immediately and talks about the Iraqi casualties (not civilians, but the Iraqi police that are working with us), & the number being $120 billion, of which a large chunk has gone to Afghanistan. Smart, quick answer. Cheney somehow makes Edwards look like a kid arguing with his dad when his dad has all the facts. It doesn’t even matter who’s actually correct.

9:22 Cheney: “I’m not challenging John Kerry’s patriotism. I’m questioning his judgement.” This is a heavyweight fight with 2 guys like Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson going toe-to-toe. They can both take a lot of hits, and no one’s likely to get knocked down, much les knocked out.

9:24 Cheney just threw Edwards by talking about why Kerry changed his Iraq vote. “Howard Dean was ahead as an anti-war candidate & his team decided they needed to change his stance.” Edwards did a good job in redirecting, but he was for a moment really thrown. Don’t know why I think so but I don’t think most people will likely catch that.

9:25 Ahh…Edwards plays the Halliburton card 25 minutes in. Cheney doesn’t seem to be taking the bait. Cheney: “These are 2 guys who were for the war when the polls were good and against the war when the polls were bad.” “Oof!” says Edwards inwardly.

9:27 Edwards: “The (administration) didn’t just reject the allies leading up to the war, they rejected them in the reconstruction.” Wow…that’s putting a spin on it. Yes, if you’re naïve enough to actually think that France and Russia were potential allies in Iraq, they did indeed keep them out of reconstruction. Ahh…here comes the “body armor” statement that everyone knew was coming. Somehow, when the press has lines verbatim ahead of time those just don’t resonate.

9:30 Edwards seems to see something in what Cheney just said: he’s got this smirk on his face that I haven’t seen that seems to say “I’ve got a zinger coming.” Let’s see.

Edwards: “The Vice-President suggests that we have the same coalition we had in the first Gulf War. Regardless of what he says, this has cost this country $200B and we have taken 90% of the casualties.” That’s his zinger?? Cheney counters with “There’s what they do. They won’t recognize the enormous contribution that the Iraqis are contributing in lives and economics to their own cause. It’s their country, and they are making enormous sacrifices and contributions.” Point: Cheney.

9:35 Cheney is talking about Zarqawi and how long he’s been in Baghdad. Pretty powerful defusing of Edwards argument.

9:36 Gwen Ifill: Back in 1991 when you were still CEO of Halliburton…” Oh, please. Stamp liberal on your forehead and call it the Bill Maher Hour because that was completely uncalled for. Would she have said to Edwards “Back in 1987, when you were still chasing ambulances…”? Why was it ok for Halliburton to win a no-bid contract under Clinton to do essentially the same thing in Yugoslavia that they’re now doing in Iraq? I say again: how do 2 obvious liberals get to not only moderate the first 2 debates but also choose the questions? Are they going to even things out by allowing Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh to moderate the next 2 debates? Where’s Edward R. Murrow, or at least Ted Koppel?

9:39 Edwards is now trying to draw parallels between Enron and Halliburton. That’s just disingenuous. To his debating credit, Edwards is smart enough to know that most people won’t research to find out the truth about Halliburton; they’ll take his word because everyone wants to believe that Halliburton and Dick Cheney are eeeevil. The Centrist Dude is being pushed to be a temporary Republican partisan.

9:44 Kudos to Cheney! He’s gone after Edwards and his senate record. “You’ve missed 33 of 36 Judiciary Committee meetings. Your hometown paper has started to call you Senator Gone. I’m the head of the Senate as Vice-President. The first time I ever met you was when I walked on stage tonight.” This has absolutely rattled Edwards into an “I am rubber, you are glue” debate. Edwards suddenly looks and sounds petulant and immature. Cheney is amazingly starting to eat Edwards alive.

9:47 As the moderator turns things to economics (no surprise, since she thinks this is where the Dems will shine & she wants to close) Cheney is talking about the burden of lawsuits and legislation in this country, as well as his other talking points.

9:49 “Cleveland has done lots of wonderful, important things, but it leads the country in poverty.” Really, John. Tell me those wonderful, important things Cleveland has done. I’m not saying it hasn’t, I’m saying he doesn’t know them. If Cheney knows any (other than the Rock and Roll Hall), this would be a good time to bring it up and ask Edwards to name some.

9:51 Edwards: “The cost of everything is going up.” Really? Amazing how Edwards knew to throw this out when Cheney couldn’t rebut due to debate rules. Do people buy this crap?

9:52 Gwen Ifill isn’t even close to being impartial. It is criminal the softball questions she throws at Edwards and the fastballs she throws at Cheney. The fact that Cheney is actually on the attack speaks volumes, though. Too bad Joe Beer Can is probably telling Mary how “them Dems gonna give it to them richies.” Fortunately, Joe doesn’t vote often and neither does Mary.

9:55 Cheney: “Small businesses create over 90% of new jobs in this country. They want to tax anyone making $200,000 a year or more, which are largely small business owners. Taxing small businesses is the wrong way to go in this country. The Senator during the Democratic debates said that his current partner’s plan would kill the economy.”

10:00 Edwards is doing something very smart by including Dick Cheney with himself as not believing that a Gay Marriage Amendment is a good idea. Cheney doesn’t take the bait, and just thanks Edwards for his kind words about his family and his daughter.

10:02 Gwen tries to bait Cheney with getting into a dogfight about whether John Edwards is endemic of the lawsuit problem in this country. Cheney recuses himself by saying he’s not familiar with Edwards’s cases. He is one smart hombre, regardless of what you think of him and his policies. Republicans should think it’s a shame that he’s not considering the presidency.

10:04 Edwards: “Let me say I am proud of my record for families against big insurance companies… But we do have too many lawsuits in this country.” Smart way to deflect and connect.

10:07 Edwards: “The malpractice part is ½ of 1% of the costs in this country, and we have double-digit inflation in health care costs.” Cheney: “We think that malpractice costs are a big problem in this country and we seriously need tort reform.” He goes on to talk about an airplane mfg in MN that could hire more people except that they have to pay so much in insurance (non-health care, of course). He talks about other things I’ll read in tomorrow’s transcripts because he’s bullet-pointing them too fast to type. Cheney really has a command of the facts. Edwards retort is to go back to Halliburton.. Again, point Cheney

10:11 Gwen asks a pointed question about the government’s failing in AIDS in this country. She is so partisan that I can now predict (as the Conservative Wife has so decently pointed out) that she will never, ever host anything like this again. Why doesn’t she just stand up and say “I want the Democrats to win!”

10:12 Edwards: “We think we should be spending double what we are in Africa to fight AIDS, and we should also be taking care of what is going on in Sudan (Darfur).” Uh…how do you propose to fund that, Mr. Edwards?

10:15: Edwsrds: “A long resume doesn’t a good record make.” Another line everyone knew was coming. And Edwards gives simplistic answers on what he would do.

10:16 Cheney: “You want me to answer questions about his (Edwards) qualifications? When President Bush asked me to sign on last election, it wasn’t because we needed to carry Wyoming, it’s because he wanted me to be a part of the team. He also knew that I had no political aspirations to be the President, and I wasn’t beholden to some Precinct Committeeman in Iowa.” Edwards is again rattled.

10:22 Gwen asks a stupid question with a stupid rule: “Don’t use your running mate’s name and talk about the differences between you and your opponent.” This is some stupid playground game by Gwen. Edwards can’t do it. The Conservative Wife thinks it makes Edwards look like a puppet instead of a member of the team. I think Gwen Ifill is a high school cub reporter posing as a journalist.

10:24 Edwards is fumbling. I wonder if he’s ever been this rattled. He’s good at trying to hide it, but you listen to him now vs. what he said at the beginning: he’s using phrases and pauses to give himself time to think, he’s making grammatical mistakes. Cheney is just cool and composed. I’m 0-2 in predicting what would happen in each debate. The American public who watched is going to come away saying “Edwards isn’t ready to lead.” Of the 4 people in this campaign, Dick Cheney is far and away the most in control and has the best grasp of the issues.

10:28 Gwen is now lost. “Senator Edwards, you have 30 seconds.” Edwards is thrown because he’s not supposed to have it. 15 seconds in, Ifill realizes it too and says “I’m sorry that you had an additional 15 seconds.” Gwen, meet Phil Luckett. He’s no longer an NFL referee, and you will never again moderate a debate.

10:32 Edwards: “We believe that we should allow imports of drugs from Canada. They’re against it because they’re with the drug companies.” Do you realize what this will do to our economy, you dumb ass?

10:34 Edwards closing statement is talking about “the light going out in America” and the “empty chair by the table.” Where’s Tiny Tim? Does this guy live in reality? As the Conservative Wife says, “This is so obsequious.” Yes it is.

10:35 Cheney’s closing statement: “I’ve worked for 4 presidents and watched 2 up close, and I know there’s no such thing as a routine day at the Oval Office.” He gives the NeoCon line and says “This is the challenge of our generation.” Wow.

POST DEBATE

Andrea Mitchell – I think that Dick Cheney did a great job of putting Edwards in his place, saying “I didn’t meet you before tonight.”

Ron Reagan – “There was a stature gap between them, but I’m not sure the public will see this.” HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh…you partisan, you.

Joe Scarborough: “Cheney obliterated Edwards. And he got it on domestic issues.”

Chris Matthews: “Edwards would take a squirt at Cheney, and then Cheney would come back with a howitzer.”

Tom Brokaw: “Dick Cheney was, as I have always seen in my years of covering him, extremely well-prepared. I liken him to George Foreman who shuffles across the ring and then unleashes a powerful blow when you aren’t expecting it. Cheney had any number of sound bite lines that will be repeated over the rest of the campaigns.”

Brian Williams is talking about fact-checking, & they’re going to show things that contradict. Predictably, the first thing they’re trying to show is Cheney contradicting himself. Unfortunately, the clip they show doesn’t contradict what Cheney had to say. Now they’re going after Edwards talking about the contract to Halliburton. They’re now going to say the same things that the few who checked knew: Halliburton was the only company with infrastructure to do the job in Iraq.

FINAL NOTE
The online voting poll is heavily skewed to Edwards, so much so that there is obviously some sort of planned Democratic trick going on. The MSNBC guys know this, too, as they are already making snide remarks about the Democrats obviously getting the word out to go vote for Edwards no matter what. No matter; anyone who paid attention or didn’t already have their mind made up will see what happened, just as they did on Thursday.